Tag Archives: Gun Control

Roundup: Another meeting that ends in all smiles

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The premiers’ meeting went off as expected—all smiles and talk of unity ahead of the New NAFTA review, and hey, Mark Carney even announced the launch of the Team Canada Trade Hub to provide coordination for trade diversification efforts as certain premiers go on their own trade mission abroad. There were also some timelines around certain trade barriers like credentials recognition and harmonization of health and safety requirements, even if those timelines may not be until next year. (But that’s something, right?)

In his remarks to the premiers, Carney invokes Sir John A Macdonald and the railway, before talking about "how we build," and being in "true partnership" with Indigenous people.The railway *might* not be the best example of "how we build" (600+ deaths) or partnership (dispossession of land).

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-29T15:19:08.664Z

There was some added side drama as Danielle Smith said that they may be taking Kitimat off the table as the destination for the hoped-for pipeline, but that doesn’t necessarily open up better options on the northwest coast of BC, given that it was determined that it was too dangerous to put a pipeline to Prince Rupert, even though a bunch of people seem to think that’s where it should have wound up in the first place. (Again, this is why Poilievre’s “approve a pipeline today” cries are so ridiculous, because there is no actual route even planned yet).

The other thing on everyone’s mind was the piece in the Financial Times that confirmed that the Alberta separatists were in meetings with the State Department in the US, and David Eby referred to their actions as “treason.” (Incidentally, this activity doesn’t meet the Criminal Code definition of treason). Smith, however, refused to condemn them because they’re politically useful to her, and Carney sidestepped any kind of denunciation, saying that the topic hadn’t come up in his conversations with Trump, when what he should be doing is summoning the ambassador and threatening to PNG him.

— Effin' Birds (@effinbirds.com) 2026-01-29T22:27:01.937Z

Ukraine Dispatch

A Russian drone strike killed three in Zaporizhzhia, while Trump says Putin agreed not to attack Kyiv for a week due to the cold (and I’ll believe that when I see it). An exchange of war dead was carried out, with 1000 Ukrainian bodies turned over for 38 Russians. The Kremlin says they invited Zelenskyy to Moscow for “peace talks.”

"Kremlin says Russia has invited Ukraine's Zelenskyy to come to Moscow for peace talks."Guys. Come on. www.reuters.com/world/europe…

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-30T05:36:13.695Z

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Roundup: Letting Trump’s lackeys spin the narrative

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Because everything is so stupid all the time, there was a whole ridiculous bit of drama yesterday as US treasury secretary Scott Bessent went on TV to claim that prime minister Mark Carney aggressively walked back his Davos speech on the phone to Trump, when the rest of us didn’t know there even was a call because there was no readout. When Carney came in for his caucus meeting yesterday and was asked about it, he disputed the characterisation, said he meant what he said at Davos, and then turned it into one of those quasi-flattering but also quasi-shady remarks akin to calling Trump “transformational,” in saying that Canada was the first to recognize the changes to global trade that Trump instituted. I’m sure he thinks he was very clever about it too.

Nevertheless, the point stands that the lack of a readout from PMO about the call means that it let the Americans get out ahead in terms of spinning the call and what was said, and as this administration does with everything, is to just lie. Part of this is also transparency, so that we know when there are calls with world leaders, particularly given the situation we’re in with Trump, and the fact that they had a thirty-minute call on a range of topics that included Ukraine is actually kind of important to know, but Carney has refused to be transparent and has said he’s not going to provide readouts for these “informal” calls going forward. So you just keep letting Trump and his people lie about what’s being said? I do not understand why they refuse to understand how to deal with this kind of behaviour.

Amidst this are a bunch of conservatives, some MPs, some designated talking heads on media shows, who were so very eager to take Trump’s side and blaming Carney for harming the relationship, or in trying to insist that it’s Carney who is holding up a tariff deal instead of Trump being mercurial and untrustworthy. I get that for a lot of these people, it’s “anything to own the Libs,” and they will contort themselves to almost the point of treason in order to get that thrill they’re looking for, but for the love of Zeus, have some self-respect.

Ukraine Dispatch

A Russian drone struck a passenger train near Kharkiv, killing five, while drones attacking Odesa killed at least three. There was also a strike against a natural gas facility in western Ukraine. The US says that Ukraine needs to sign a peace deal with Russia to get security guarantees (but Russia has no interest in a peace deal).

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Roundup: Badly rebranding the GST rebate

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Prime minister Mark Carney opened the day at an Ottawa-area grocery store, announcing that as an affordability measure, the government is going to increase the GST rebate by 25 percent for the next five years, and rebrand it as the “Canada Groceries and Essentials Benefit,” which is a mystifying name, and like they didn’t learn a gods damned thing from the “Climate Action Incentive” fiasco. (Honest to Zeus, you guys!) But yes, giving low-income people money is a good way to go about it, and the Conservatives say they’ll support it, for what it’s worth, even though they continue to insist that the real culprit are those imaginary “hidden taxes” that aren’t taxes, and which have a negligible impact on the price of food.

This rebranding shows they didn't learn a fucking thing after the "Climate Action Incentive" fiasco.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-27T04:57:18.254Z

More money and top ups to GST credit is good as myself, @gillianpetit.bsky.social and @jrobson.bsky.social wrote about before policyoptions.irpp.org/2022/09/gst-….Renaming it is unnecessary and has unnecessary risks. I don’t understand

— Dr Lindsay Tedds (@lindsaytedds.bsky.social) 2026-01-26T16:49:53.171Z

Conservatives still pushing the bullshit line that it's "hidden taxes" driving up food prices and not climate change.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-26T18:01:22.926Z

Carney also promised to tackle the “root causes” of food price inflation, but he remains fairly vague about what they are. “Global supply chain shocks caused by tariffs, weather events from a changing climate, and geopolitical disruptions have caused food prices to rise faster than overall inflation.” This is fine enough in the abstract, but when you’re being assailed daily over certain prices, I would prefer some better explanation. He went on to say “Orange juice is up 12% year-over-year, ground beef is up 19%, and coffee and tea are up by 24%,” but could have added that orange juice is up because the crops were devastated by hurricanes, that ground beef is up because drought on the prairies means herds needed to be culled, and coffee and tea are up because of growing conditions in the countries where they are produced. And while it’s all well and good to signal that he plans to help support the construction of new greenhouses and to fix supply chains in this country, that doesn’t actually solve the broader climate issues that he needs to be honest about and explicit about for it to sink in.

From there, Carney jetted off to Toronto to have a pizza lunch with Doug Ford, in order to soothe Ford’s hurt feelings over the whole Chinese EV thing, and they denied that there was ever any tension. Ford later sang the praises of the federal auto strategy, which seems to indicate that maybe he should have waited for a phone call before throwing a tantrum in public, but hey, what would Ford be if he wasn’t constantly infantilising himself with these kinds of antics while insisting he’s the “fun uncle” who doesn’t have to handle adult responsibilities.

The pool readout from Carney's pizza lunch with Ford.Zeus wept.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-26T22:09:06.947Z

Ukraine Dispatch

Russia has once again attacked Kharkiv, leaving 80 percent of the city and surrounding area without power.

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Roundup: Mixed messages in Carney’s Davos speech

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There has been much praise for prime minister Mark Carney’s speech in Davos yesterday, but I have some fairly mixed feelings about it. For one, much of the speech was a collection of the lines he’s used in previous speeches, and put them all into one place, so rhetorically, there wasn’t much new, even if he invoked Thucydides or Havel. And he’s not wrong that the truth of the rules-based international order was that the “great powers”—meaning the US—exempted itself whenever they wanted, but they also guaranteed its operation, so it was double-edged. And he was also correct in calling out that the instinct to go along to get along won’t save anyone. And he did pledge support for Greenland, NATO and Article V, so that was all good.

Some thoughts from me on Mark Carney’s important speech in Davos. youtu.be/Xj1VHwVgsAY?…

— Roland Paris (@rolandparis.bsky.social) 2026-01-20T18:26:05.275Z

However. The fact that he very carefully avoided naming Trump and the US means that this was not nearly as brave as some people would like. And it exposed some of the hypocrisy of his own positions—for example, saying that appeasing won’t save you is all well and good, but for months now, he has been constantly appeasing the Americans to “keep talks going,” such as how he killed the Digital Services Tax. I also have grave reservations about simply declaring the rules-based order dead and saying that “nostalgia is not a strategy” (while back home, he keeps invoking a false nostalgia about being a country that built things) because the middle powers need that structure, even if America isn’t playing ball. That means leaning into those rules collectively, and appealing to Europe to be the vanguards of that. There was an inherent hypocrisy in talking about his “values-based realism” because there are no values to be displayed when you deal with people who engage in slave labour and whom your government declared was perpetrating a genocide. He wants us to leverage a network of relations with other countries and trade blocs, but he’s cutting Global Affairs and the diplomats who would do this work. There is just so much inconsistency in what he’s saying and what he’s actually doing.

From Carney's Davos speech. This is one of the things I referred to in this morning's column—I fail to see the "respect for human rights" in all of the so-called "strategic partnerships" he's been signing, and shrugging that off as "pragmatic" just winds up reeking of hypocrisy instead.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-20T16:33:28.210Z

Carney has spent the past year subtweeting Trump.At a certain point, these words mean nothing if he won't actually come out and say what he's criticizing.

— Justin Ling (@justinling.ca) 2026-01-20T16:15:56.156Z

This is the right understanding of our geopolitical reality, but Carney's actions aren't in line with these statements. We need investment in our diplomatic corps and a clear foreign policy to mobilize Canada to meet the moment. www.cbc.ca/news/politic…

— Jess Davis (@jessmarindavis.bsky.social) 2026-01-20T16:13:17.066Z

https://bsky.app/profile/emmettmacfarlane.com/post/3mcum6ygq3c2h

And getting into bed with other illiberal regimes to counter the one south of us risks tainting us as well.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2026-01-20T16:54:40.840Z

There was a contrast with Justin Trudeau, who was also at Davos, with Katy Perry in tow, and of course all of the focus was on her, and not the speech Trudeau gave. Where people did know about it, most of the comments were dismissive, but I think he actually has a relevant point in contrast to Carney. While both pointed out that the era of the rules-based international order that protected rights and freer trade is over, Trudeau made a point of talking about respect for international law and respect for allies as the way through the crisis, and that Canada has built up enough credibility globally that people know that if we are in a conflict zone, it’s not to steal oil or sell them Coca-Cola while we replace their system of government. I think that is something that Carney was missing, and it goes the point I was making in my latest column that we have soft power leverage we can use, if Carney wasn’t so intent on just squandering it.

Ukraine Dispatch

The attacks on power infrastructure in Ukraine risks nuclear meltdowns because of the to run cooling systems, which is part of Russia’s strategy.

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Roundup: More “strategic investments” from a brutal dictator

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Mark Carney was in Doha, Qatar, over the weekend, to meet with the Emir and get a commitment on “strategic investment” in Canadian infrastructure projects, while the Qatar Philharmonic Orchestra serenaded them with old CanCon hits. Carney also invited the Emir to visit Ottawa later in the year. The problem? Qatar is a pretty brutal dictatorship that employs slave labour, has no women’s or LGBTQ+ rights, and they play a role in being middlemen for a number of listed terror groups in the name of mediation and facilitation of conflict resolution. But hey, they have money and access in the Middle East, and they might want to partner with Canada for humanitarian and development work, which is darkly ironic considering the cost of that money.

When are we gonna forge "a new strategic partnership" with a country that actually respects democratic values and the rule of law instead of rule by law?

— Emmett Macfarlane 🇨🇦 (@emmettmacfarlane.com) 2026-01-18T19:08:26.335Z

Meanwhile, Carney has brushed off Doug Ford’s concerns about the EV deal with China, and there seems to be this expectation that they can get investment to build these cheap EVs in Canada, but I have doubts about this considering that the reason they’re cheap is because they are being subsidized to overproduce for foreign market consumption so that they can get a foothold in those markets, and undermine them in order to create a tech monoculture. Carney also said that he’s “concerned” about Trump’s threats over Greenland, and it sounds like we may send some additional troops there, even though we already have an existing presence.

— Effin' Birds (@effinbirds.com) 2026-01-18T21:02:07.506Z

Ukraine Dispatch

Russian drone strikes in Zaporizhzhia on Saturday have left 200,000 Ukrainians without power.

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Roundup: A “strategic partnership” with China

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During prime minister Mark Carney’s meeting with Chinese president Xi Jinping yesterday, a “strategic partnership” was signed that will see access for a limited number of Chinese EVs into the Canadian market in exchange for the promise to remove some tariffs on canola, along with the tariffs on Canadian pork and seafood, but only for the remainder of this year, maybe. In addition, there’s talk about cooperating on combatting drug trafficking (given the fentanyl issue), but some other vague language that is likely to be used by China to demand people to be extradited for trial. None of this is terribly great, but this is the result of months of behind-the-scenes diplomacy. If you listen to Michael Kovrig, he is pointing out the language in the agreement and that China is using, and that it’s really a test that aims to employ diplomatic gatekeeping instead of reconciliation.

Two immediate thoughts1. We have conceded a lot for promises of relief – not actual relief. Thanks, I hate it.2. This is a clear sign Carney is expecting very little to come of US trade talks this year. www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/artic…

— Stephanie Carvin (@stephaniecarvin.bsky.social) 2026-01-16T13:22:38.846Z

Trump basically shrugged off the news of this deal—or at least he did today, and that may change again. Scott Moe and Danielle Smith are happy with the deal, while Doug Ford is spitting mad. Pierre Poilievre is clutching his pearls, but is also asking the very relevant question of how Carney went from saying China is the country’s greatest threat to signing a “strategic partnership” with them in the space of less than a year. And frankly, Carney and his minister have been completely evasive on the issue, and the issue of human rights in China (remember how just last year Parliament voted on a motion that said that China was executing a genocide of the Uyghurs?). Because apparently “pragmatism” means we can’t have values anymore.

This all having been said, frankly, it was incompetence on the part of Carney and his ministers to let a group of frankly bad actors frame this issue of EVs versus canola into some kind of west-east dispute around how the federal government was protecting the auto sector at the expense of the west—a bullshit assertion given that western canola producers were warned not to let China take as much market share as they did, but they were both greedy and lazy, and China exploited that. Do I think that’ll change now with this deal? Nope. They’ll continue to rely on this to keep their Chinese market share overly large so that the next time China is mad about something, they’ll come up with another excuse to ban or tariff canola, and the sector will be right back in this same situation, because they’re greedy and lazy. And with regards to the auto sector, frankly it bears a share of the blame as well for dragging their feet on producing more and cheaper EVs, or charging infrastructure, or anything else, knowing that the market was shifting—while they demanded that the federal government do everything from funding the transition to demanding they set up the charging infrastructure. (Did the federal set up gas stations across the country back at the turn of the last century? No. Why should they now?)

Ukraine Dispatch

Russia claims to have taken two villages—one in Donetsk, one in Zaporizhzhia. In the wake of all of the attacks on energy infrastructure, Ukraine is currently only able to meet sixty percent of its electricity needs.

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Roundup: A stop before the China trip

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Today is the big day, as prime minister Mark Carey is departing on his big ten-day tour to China, Qatar, and Davos, Switzerland, but before he leaves, he will be making a stop in Prince Rupert, BC, for a meeting with Coastal First Nations, months after he signed his MOU with Danielle Smith about a pipeline that they intend to push through their territory over their objections. (Carney says no project will go ahead without them, but I would not put much stock in that particular promise).

We have also learned that Scott Moe will be joining Carney on the trip, because if there’s one thing that Carney needs, it’s Canada’s smoothest-brained premier to bleat on about canola. The federal officials who briefed reporters ahead of the trip suggested that there may be some relief from the current tariffs being imposed by China on canola, beef and seafood, but for the dispute not to be at an end just yet. Apparently there are “active discussions” about dropping the EV tariffs, which some people still think would be a good idea given that we are no longer counting on a North American EV strategy, but that presupposes that China’s intentions with the EV market are pure, which they’re not—they would be collecting massive amounts of data from Canadians, and they could cripple those EVs through software if they wanted, beyond the economic damage they would be doing to our auto industry by displacing it with product that they have subsidised at uncompetitive rates.

Meanwhile, two Liberal MPs cut short their trip to Taiwan to “avoid confusion” with Carney’s upcoming trip, which seems like bad form, and of course, they are being accused of “kowtowing” to the Chinese government. It’s hard to say whether this should be interpreted as a gesture or as “clarity,” or whatnot, considering that the Chinese government may not understand the nuances of who is a backbencher and who is government (and to be frank, there are plenty of Canadians, including those within parliament, who don’t understand the difference), but it does leave a bad taste to look like they are complying in advance with yet another authoritarian (and Carney seems to be doing a whole lot of complying).

— Effin' Birds (@effinbirds.com) 2026-01-12T23:08:02.309Z

Ukraine Dispatch

There has been another intense bombardment of Kyiv and Kharkiv overnight. Russian drones hit two foreign-flagged vessels in port near Odesa, which were carrying corn and vegetable oil. The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine says that civilian casualties were up sharply last year.

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Roundup: Twenty years of ignoring a warning

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I find myself a little bit fascinated with the story of the main water feeder pipe break in Calgary, mostly because of what it exposes about municipal politics in this country. Council was presented with a report today that shows that they were warned about this twenty years ago, and that nobody did anything about it during all that time. Twenty. Years. The report was commissioned after the 2024 pipe break, and here it is, broken again, because they didn’t finish the job.

Here is the independent panel's timeline of how risk was identified with the Bearspaw Feeder Main 20 years before it ruptured in June 2024.

— Adam MacVicar (@adammacvicar.bsky.social) 2026-01-07T21:19:54.037Z

City councils didn’t prioritize it because they have been so preoccupied with keeping property taxes as low as possible that these kinds of major infrastructure projects continue to be underfunded and overlooked. City staff apparently have unclear reporting structures so nobody becomes responsible for this kind of an issue, and the author of the report was saying he wouldn’t lay the blame on any one individual or era of council. “This problem existed. It repeated itself. It did not surface to the right level of decision-making. And so it’s very difficult, in my opinion, to lay specific blame on any individual. We had a process weakness that was not corrected.”

The thing is, we have a lot of city councils in this country who are also focused solely on keeping their property taxes down, and placating NIMBYs, and we there is other critical infrastructure in this country that is bound for failure. Councils adopt a learned helplessness when city staff don’t do their due diligence about these kinds of failures, and vanishingly few councils are doing their jobs in ensuring these kinds of issues are actually being dealt with. This could be a warning for other cities to take a second look and ensure that they are doing the inspections and maintenance that was ignored here…or they will rely on normalcy bias and leave it for later because clearly it won’t happen to them, right? I have a feeling I know which is more likely.

Ukraine Dispatch

Russia attacked two seaports in the Odesa region on Wednesday, while late-night strikes knocked out power in two southeaster regions.

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Roundup: Ignoring the true meaning of the Statute of Westminster

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Yesterday was the Anniversary of the Statute of Westminster (1931), which is one of the most pivotal moments in our evolution as a sovereign country, but it rarely gets much mention. When I was in junior high, I remember them talking about how this ensured that Canada could control its own foreign policy, but they never said why. And it turns out that no official account or even the Government of Canada’s web page gave the reason either. The reason is that this was the creation of the Canadian Crown as a separate and distinct legal entity from the Crown of the UK, which mean that we could control our own foreign policy, and were seen as an equal to the UK and not a subordinate. But absolutely nobody mentions the Crown of Canada as the reason. Nobody.

The government's page undersells the importance of this date, because today is the anniversary of the creation of the Crown of Canada as a separate and distinct entity from the UK crown. That's why we gained control over our foreign affairs and "our own voice" on the world stage.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2025-12-11T14:17:20.569Z

The Governor General did not put out a release about the day or its importance to the Canadian Crown. Mark Carney did not put out a release about the day at all. Pierre Poilievre did, but not only did he not mention the Canadian Crown, but he talked up conservative figures from the era of history to try and distract from the fact that Mackenzie King was prime minister at the time, which was frankly sad and a little bit pathetic. Nobody else put out a release, and absolutely nobody mentioned the anniversary of the Canadian Crown.

Nothing about the Crown of Canada.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2025-12-11T21:53:33.606Z

The creation of the Canadian Crown is one of the most pivotal moments in our history, and it goes completely unremarked because the department of Canadian Heritage is full of republicans, and too many members of civil society are quietly embarrassed by our status as a constitutional monarchy, as though it’s still colonial or “not grown up” when it’s not that at all. The separate Canadian Crown means we are grown up, that we control our own Crown and destiny. And if you don’t want to time-share the monarch with the UK and the other Realms, well, we can change that at any point as well (with the unanimous consent of Parliament and the provinces), and I for one would not be averse to making Princess Anne the full-time Queen of Canada, as she is not only the best royal, but her grandchildren are already Canadian, so that helps with the succession issues. Suffice to say, we have to stop effacing the fact that the Canadian Crown is the central reason why we gained full independence then.

Another floor-crossing

After both Houses of Parliament rose for the winter break, and just before the Liberals had their Christmas party, Conservative MP Michael Ma crossed the floor to join the Liberal ranks. He’s from Markham—Unionville, which is John McCallum’s old riding, so it’s flipped back-and-forth between the Liberals and Conservatives, and Ma has been almost anonymous in the House of Commons, pretty much never put up in QP to read a script for the sake of clips, so he has no profile in the party. His statement talked about “unity and decisive action” for Canadians, which could translate to the fact that he (and possibly his constituents) is tired of the petty little games that Poilievre and his caucus spend all of their time doing.

It also puts the Liberals one seat away from a workable majority, and the House Leader, Steve MacKinnon, hinted that there are more conversations ongoing with Conservatives, and according to the journalists and pundits on the political talk shows, Ma’s name has never been bandied about as a possibility, so this was a complete surprise. But it will also serve to shut Don Davies up if they do get that one more MP, because Davies will have no leverage to try and blackmail Carney with. So, I guess we’ll see what happens by the time Parliament returns.

Well. That happened.

— Dale Smith (@journodale.bsky.social) 2025-12-11T23:22:51.428Z

Ukraine Dispatch

Russian commanders claim to have taken Siversk in the east, but Ukraine denies this. Here is an analysis of how the potential fall of Pokrovsk won’t collapse Ukraine’s front lines. In the back-and-forth on “peace” plans, the US wants to turn ceded lands in the Donbas into a “free economic zone,” and no, I don’t get it either.

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QP: Relitigating the Century Initiative, again

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Despite being in town and on a Wednesday, the PM was not present for what could very well have been the final QP of 2025. Pierre Poilievre led off in French, and he accused Mark Wiseman, potential candidate for the new ambassador to Washington, of advocating throwing open the borders to cause the decline of housing, healthcare, and French in Canada, as part of the Century Initiative, and accused the government of planning to reward him. Steve MacKinnon said that he first wanted to wish the best to Ambassador Kirsten Hillman, but the Century Initiative has never been and will never be the government’s policy. Poilievre said that regardless, the person behind the policy was Wiseman, saying he showed contempt for Quebec and cannot negotiate on their behalf. Dominic LeBlanc gave his own thanks to Hillman, and said that Poilievre was trying to get a clip for the news but this wasn’t going to be the one. Poilievre switched to English to repeat the “radical open doors” accusation about Wiseman. MacKinnon repeated praise for Hillman, and that the Century Initiative was never government policy. Poilievre segued this to taking swipes at the PM for the trip to Egypt and the costs of the private plane, where he played no role at the ceremony. MacKinnon pretended to be aghast that Poilievre was suggesting the PM miss an auspicious event as signing a peace accord for Gaza. Poilievre continued to be agog at the cost of said flight, and this time Anita Anand praised the prime minister’s role in global events. Poilievre groused that Carney himself wasn’t answering, and then pivoted to his imaginary “hidden taxes.” Patty Hajdu dismissed these imaginary taxes and pointed to drought and climate change hurting crops and herds, which was why the governor was ensuring they have money in their pockets.

Christine Normandin rose for the Bloc, and she too complained about Wiseman and the Century Initiative. MacKinnon reminded her that was never the policy of the government and never would be. Normandin suggested one of the Liberal Quebec MPs stand up the prime minister to push back against his appointment. This time Joël Lightbound reiterated that this was not their policy, before taking a swipe at the Bloc for not caring about culture in Quebec. Yves Perron raised the “sandboxing” provisions in the budget and called them anti-democratic, to which MacKinnon dismissed the concern as they were debating it right now.

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